No lies detected.
We posted the transcribed scene here.
“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.Cersei initiates the kissing. She says “no, not here, the septons” when Jaime starts kissing her neck, then mentions the wrath of the gods and her father as he’s making space for them to have sex, which is important to note. She protests at first because of the location and because she doesn’t want them to be caught, not because she doesn’t want to have sex with him. If the scene was written as Cersei struggled to push him away, wanted to make him stop kissing her, but couldn’t etc. and hadn’t included her literally telling Jaime to have sex with her, it would have been rape, but that isn’t what happened.Cersei forgets the septons and the location, tells him to hurry, tells him to have sex with her, and even grabs him and guides him to her. She also says "yes" three times and other terms of endearment while they’re having sex. She gives him explicit consent, and it is then and only then that the sex happens. If she’d said no, Jaime—who has clear moral issues with rape due to past trauma—would not have forced Cersei. His thoughts during that scene are also about how much he wants to protect her, not about how hateful she is.In the show, she pulls completely away from the kiss/stops the kiss, which is when Jaime’s personality completely switches and he calls her hateful, then forces her to kiss him. The gods and the septons and our father be damned turns into “how could the gods make me love such a hateful woman.” She says “no” “stop it” continuously while struggling with him to stop. I think there’s a clear difference here.-J
eta: I’ve thought about this some more after discussing it on the latest FPC and writing up a few other responses. I should have considering this question properly before responding the first time.
I think being inside the heads of these characters sometimes hinders my ability to think about scenes like this from all angles. Had I not been inside Jaime’s head, then yes…if I saw a woman saying “no” and feebly hitting him, my immediate thought would be “that doesn’t seem consensual.” Because without being inside either of these character’s heads, I wouldn’t know whether she was protesting because she didn’t want to have sex versus worrying about being caught in the sept. As I am reading from the character’s POV, I didn’t immediately consider the dubiousness in the scene. I don’t fault other people for being more uncomfortable with it, because it does feed into this idea that suddenly changing your mind = consent, when really… consent should always be enthusiastic.
I don’t think what happens in this passage is by any means a perfect example of consent and to be quite honest, most sex scenes in the books have a similar problem. It’s dubious at first because Cersei’s worried, but she changes her mind because she wants Jaime (uncomfortable even though she guides him to her and says yes). GRRM should have removed all ambiguity and made it explicitly consensual from the very beginning instead of playing up this idea of being “too caught up in a passionate moment to be afraid of the danger anymore.” Due to rape culture, people have entirely different ideas of what constitutes as consent, so if you’re writing about sex…there should be no room left for someone to misinterpret that scene.
However, there’s no doubt that the scene in the show is rape (no matter what the writers or directors argue) and I don’t for a second think that the initial ambiguity excuses the show’s interpretation. They could have easily taken those steps that GRRM failed to take, if they knew what consent was, but they don’t. I also think it’s clear that the writers and director didn’t remove that dubiousness in order to make a clear judgement/to condemn Jaime’s character. They removed it because they didn’t think Cersei’s consent was important at all. They removed it because they didn’t think that there needed to be a “yes” to make the scene consensual.
I’m also going to come right out and say that I HATE how they’ve made Cersei so openly disgusted by Jaime’s lack of hand.
In their initial reunion, she says:
"You look so thin. and your hair, your golden hair…"
"The hair will grow back." Jaime lifted his stump. She needs to see. “This won’t.”
Her eyes went wide. “The Starks…”
[snip for irrelevant dialogue/exposition]
She kissed Jaime’s fingers. “You’ll kill him for me, won’t you? You’ll avenge our son.”
Jaime pulled away. “He is still my brother.” He shoved his stump at her face, in case she failed to see it. “And I am in no fit state to be killing anyone.”
"You have another hand, don’t you?"
Cersei is not disgusted by Jaime’s injury. As she later says, “I was afraid the Starks would send me your head.”
She does recoil from his stump later on, after their encounter on the altar. But it should be noted that she recoils after he’s said they should run away together and get married. Jaime infers that she’s recoiling from his stump, but it could be that she was recoiling from what she viewed as something dangerous. Jaime wanted to “stand up before the realm” and admit that they were lovers.
“Don’t…don’t talk like this. You’re scaring me, Jaime. Don’t be stupid. One wrong word and you’ll cost us everything. What did they do to you?”
"They cut off my hand."
"No, it’s more, you’re changed."
Later, Cersei comes to Jaime because Tywin is going to send her to Casterly Rock, force her to marry again, and she says,
"I will not have another husband. You are the only man I want in my bed, ever again."
"Then tell him [Tywin] that!"
She pulled her hands away. “You are talking madness again….I want to be your wife, we belong to each other, but it can never be, Jaime. We are brother and sister.”
"We are not Targaryens!"
"Jaime," she sobbed, "don’t you think I want it as much as you do? It makes no matter who they wed me to, I want you at my side, I want you in my bed, I want you inside me. Nothing has changed between us. Let me prove it to you." She pushed up his tunic and began to fumble with the laces of his breeches.
And then he stops her, says no, not here, not in the White Tower. She says they did it in the sept, why not here? And he stops her again.
For an instant he could see confusion in her bright green eyes, and fear as well. Then rage replaced it.
And THEN she mocks his hand. THEN she lashes out at him for no longer having a sword hand. Only when he’s rejected her, when she feels she has to hurt him like she’s been hurt. When she feels utterly abandoned.
Is there manipulation in all of this? Of course. But to have Cersei so openly reject Jaime on the show, when all he wants is to be with her….does not sit right with me.
also she called you guys “fatpinkass” and I had to laugh at her. I just imagine her smirking at a computer whenever she posts something really hateful and ridiculous and she just thinks she’s so badass and cool as she rages against marginalized people. like wow the most pathetic existence
I don’t think any fan who critiques that scene should need to be able to come up with a magical solution for D&D or Michelle Clapton. D&D are educated grown ups who live in this society. They are seasoned professionals (especially Clapton!) They have access to all the money and resources that an HBO show can offer. They can come up with creative solutions and the onus does not fall on fandom to suggest what-ifs.
That being said, they could have started by taking a page out of other productions by acknowledging their weaknesses. The creators of Avatar: The Last Airbender identified that cultural appropriation could be a problem for their production so they hired cultural consultants. The writing team for LOST acknowledged their lack of familiarity with Korean culture and decided to hire a writer familiar with those elements. The writing team of Mad Men is staffed with multiple women which helps the show approach the topic of sexism more strongly.
Despite all the well deserved criticism about the show’s depiction of race (from the pilot!) and gender (play with her ass and onwards) the show actually has never had people of color on the writing team and now doesn’t even have women on it’s 100% white dude staff. And it doesn’t take a “minority” to recognize that that Dany savior scene was problematic. There’s just a lack of self awareness. Perhaps a different director more familiar with gender issues would have recognized the Jaime and Cersei scene as rape…but the one they hired to handle this scene they rewrote can’t even tell what rape is or talk about filming the scene without gushing about how titillated he was.
We discussed some logistical solutions in our podcast discussing that Mhysa scene (frame the shot differently! Word your casting call differently! Etc.) but the problem wasn’t about logistics, it was about the production’s inability to recognize the scene as problematic in the first place. It wasn’t like the production was like “We knew this would have racist elements, but our hands were tied by logistics and we made a decision to do it anyway.” Their response was more along the lines of “this isn’t problematic at all, because logistics.”
They still aren’t seeing their weaknesses or making moves to address them.
Edit: I mean for real like blame the racial demographics of the country you chose to film that scene in for your own race fail.
Thanks you! And thanks for sticking with us.
The assumption is that they even had to do it. They didn’t. There were other options. Cersei was having breakdown, so there was absolutely potential for her to take comfort in Jaime. They could have easily made that scene a re-conciliatory one. They’re not going to condemn it either because they seem to think it was consensual so all we’ve got is a scene that people are going to excuse as being “okay” because this relationship was already screwed up.